shooting video (autofocus)

[spasmoid]

Well, shooting video seems to be very much an available function in DSLRs so I assume it is okay to talk about it here. In fact, is there any reason it should not have it's on topic area in the forum?

Anyway, I have a question: what is the deal with auto-focus in DSLR videography?
Are there *ANY* DSLRs which have a useful implementation of this?

I know that my 500D is hopeless at it, but that is a cheap camera so I'm not all that surprised. However looking at better video DSLRs like the 7D on youtube, I still see what looks like people struggling with manual focus on all their footage. Sometimes manual focus is okay to do, but decent autofocus seems to be the "big thing" separating purpose-built video cameras and the modern high-end DSLRs. I'd be interested to know if compacts do a better job too (although, they are technically not part of this forum). I have no idea how DSLRs in the Nikon camp are dealing with this.

Please relay your experience.

Cheers.

ps. http://vimeo.com/user787837/videos

[surenj]

There is a note in the FAQ that states this forum doesn't do video because it's a specialised area.

To partially answer your question, I think the best budget DSLR for autofocus is 550D. Even the 7D can't do it AFAIK.

I am sure Marcus/ Cameron will comment.

[spasmoid]

There is a note in the FAQ that states this forum doesn't do video because it's a specialised area.

To partially answer your question, I think the best budget DSLR for autofocus is 550D. Even the 7D can't do it AFAIK.

I am sure Marcus/ Cameron will comment.

cheers for the info.

It's a shame one can't talk about video here because my interests in it are with specific references to DSLR implementation.

interesting re: 550.

One of the reasons I ask, is because I am considering doing wedding videos (I already do wedding photography) and wondering weather DSLR really present a viable proposition for the job (before investing heavily in gear).

[aim54x]

Sorry to dissappoint, this is a Marucs (Canon boy) question. I simply have no interest in video and have not really been following the development, other than the announcement of the Panasonic M4/3rds camcorder and the Sony E-mount camcorder....

[Mr Darcy]

It's a shame one can't talk about video here because my interests in it are with specific references to DSLR implementation.

I agree. Gary, if you're watching, it may be time to change this policy now that many DSLRs have video built in.

Like Cameron I have little interest in video, but it seems to me that if you are doing video for weddings, you would want a dedicated still camera and a dedicated video camera, and it would make sense to me for the video camera to be just that. Think of the catastrophe if you had a single body failure otherwise. I don't go off-roading in my Peugeot 307 if I can at all help it, and I try to avoid visiting the city in my 4x4.

[spasmoid]

It's a shame one can't talk about video here because my interests in it are with specific references to DSLR implementation.

I agree. Gary, if you're watching, it may be time to change this policy now that many DSLRs have video built in.

Like Cameron I have little interest in video, but it seems to me that if you are doing video for weddings, you would want a dedicated still camera and a dedicated video camera, and it would make sense to me for the video camera to be just that. Think of the catastrophe if you had a single body failure otherwise. I don't go off-roading in my Peugeot 307 if I can at all help it, and I try to avoid visiting the city in my 4x4.

Fair call. Probably the most attractive aspect of using the DSLR for video, other than the implementation sensational sensor chip, is that I get to leverage some awesome glass on the video camera without spending tens of thousands. Ideally I would acquire a Red system - although their lenses are disproportionately expensive. I wonder if you can get an adaptor mount for EF lenses, altghough, there goes your AF anyways :/

[photomarcs]

AHA! Something I have experience with

Ok, so heres the deal with AF on HDSLRs, it works well on both the 7D and the 550D... the problem that arises here is that the obvious AF noise is apparent in all recordings.. plus the other part to look at is the AF point, theres no point having AF in the video if you've got autopoint select on, even when you've got single point AF there's still the problem with focusing speed and major issues of hunting.

Although i must admit, the 550D is a fantastic video piece, the 500D on the other hand is .. well.. if you want video.. go buy a cheap HD video camera.. you'll have better luck it records in 1080 @ 20fps... a little under what I'd like to consider cinematic. the 720p is still questionable though.. due to the jello.


With Video modes though.. during a wedding it does get quiet questionable as to being able to video and photograph a wedding single handedly. I've previously attempted at just leaving it on a tripod while i shoot.. Program mode with AWB only works so well in this circumstance.. The best thing about dedicated videographers using HDSLR's is that they'll know to use manual in most instances, the hardest part for them is the clicking noise each scroll and turn makes, Image Stabilizer does compensate for handheld videographing, and i've seen it in action.. works wonders if you can already keep quite still.

The AF issue arises these key problem areas :

1. AF noise during video ( if you wish to leave the sound audible), USM or HSM does not help here.
2. Hunting.. AF during liveview is quite the dramatic hunter.. Even with USM lenses.
3. The freedom of one hand, what does this entail? multitasking? which would / could alter the quality of a videographer.

As a kind whisper, don't bother with Nikon video in their dslr's... Nikon's aren't made for videoing that well and the Jello effect is VERY evident in the D5000, D90 and the D300s...haven't checked out the D3s performance, but that's well out of budget for alot of us.

What I'm personally using at the moment is a nikon adaptor, with a 135mm f2.8 NIKKOR on my 7D.. it's great as a manual focus because it's so smooth and can resolve quite well considering it's age as well, so it's purely a video lens in that sense.. I'll be buying more manual focus NIKKOR lenses in the not too distant future to compensate for the lack of video lenses atm. I also use a RODE microphone..runs off a 9V battery.. which although is external.. if attached to the camera's hotshoe.. the AF noise is still audible, it's reduced heavily when removed from the hotshoe.

All in All, video in DSLR's are part of the changing times,as a happy owner of the 7D, i can say that it works well for video and has resulted to me considering against purchasing an enthusiast HD video camera. 1080p works great, and the 7D buffers like magic. thats the difference between the 7D and the 550D, CF vs. SDHC, 2 processors vs 1 processor, build quality, grip, weight, AF system. All of which come into consideration.

If you do intend on purchasing a HDSLR, please consider the following items to go along to help you in your reign :
- Hoodman Loupe or Zacuto Finder ( prefferably Zacuto branded)
- Shoulder mounting Kit available from Zacuto.. theres a few other brands that have the same sort of setup.
- External microphone ( Rode works well for me personally).
- Video Light, LED based, good catches are your 126 LED video lights that run off some camcorder batteries or 6 AA's.
- 18-135mm IS.. great lens for video.. i know it's quite blasphemous to note a EF-S lens.. but for that price you can't go wrong in the focal lengths present, the focusing ring in manual and the IS..works well as a walkaround lens.
- If you don't go for the shoulder mount, consider a handgrip that mounts to the camera via the tripod mount.

and as a bit off topic.. Trammell from Magic Lantern is currently devising a Magic Lantern Hack for the 7D to allow audio gain control, live histograms, and zebra stripes according to highlight areas.. it's been in progress for quite some time.. but soon enough it will hit the internet. Not sure if anything on the 550D will be developed as such.. but I don't doubt it one bit.


I hope this helps you in your decision as it can make a fair amount of moola, but take away alot from you to begin with, so if any other questions on video are wanted, just let me know =) I'll try to find out for you whatever you need to know as well.

[surenj]

Marcus, Thanks for this wealth of information! Some of these factors I hadn't even dreamt about!

Good idea with the shoulder mount. Personally I'd like my wedding videographer to use a steadycam or equivalent. What's the use of 1080p if it's shaky.

[photomarcs]

Marcus, Thanks for this wealth of information! Some of these factors I hadn't even dreamt about!

Good idea with the shoulder mount. Personally I'd like my wedding videographer to use a steadycam or equivalent. What's the use of 1080p if it's shaky.

No worries Surenj!

The use of 1080p being shaky has it's purposes, There was a handheld shortclip that was produced, i believe it was called grey or gray? it was about a World War II Soldier.. the shaky handheld vibe gave a live action sort of feel, and complimented the filmmaker's aim highly, so i guess it does have it's uses. Where i find more use personally is in the 720p 60fps. No lag, big enough resolution and in the 7D it feels VERY responsive, the 24fps in the 1080p though, gives that classic "rolling shutter" sorta feel.. something that film critiques love due to the emotional outburst it can bring out. I guess that this does define video far from photography. In Video you still have to consider ISO, Shutter Speed, Aperture, White Balance, but this is at a constant change with the inclusion of composition constantly, Steadyness / balance, live highlight details and constant control of the film, I guess in this sense, the Frame rate also is the consideration of how much it can alter a person's opinion of something while it gets viewed,a slow fps for instance of a kid playing baseball and hitting a ball would be more cinematic and emotional progression comes out of that, whereas a faster frame rate allows moreso the judgement on a game or the way they can improve their bat by replaying in slow motion.

Another world isn't it?

[photomarcs]

Fair call. Probably the most attractive aspect of using the DSLR for video, other than the implementation sensational sensor chip, is that I get to leverage some awesome glass on the video camera without spending tens of thousands. Ideally I would acquire a Red system - although their lenses are disproportionately expensive. I wonder if you can get an adaptor mount for EF lenses, altghough, there goes your AF anyways :/

The RED system is a fantastic system... if the 5DMark II didn't exist. The benefits of using such a "cheap" alternative to a RED one is exactly that, a cheap alternative. In this day and age, even televised shows are beginning to use the awesome power of the HDSLR.. for example, two FOX series have been using the Mark II to develop their episodes lately:

1) HOUSE
2) True Blood

But where i question the quality issue is simply, how come my 7D, can perform better than a mark II in video? well the answer is simple. The 5D Mark II was the first Canon DSLR with video mode, in the 7D and the 550D, the video has been refined and you can tell the quality difference if you look, there's less jello on the 7D and 550D compared to the 5D II, i guess in this sense, it really comes down to, what you're after.

Are there *ANY* DSLRs which have a useful implementation of this?

In accordance to AF during video, not at the moment, it's basically an AI Servo that is really unsuitable ATM.. I can't personally name any useful implementation of this considering that it MAY (thats a big may) distort creative control.

[spasmoid]

Hey Marcus, I'm really glad you joined this discussion. I knew there would be someone here with some good experience using DSLRs for video, and WOW, what an amazing post you gave.

I think I am even more keen to get a 7D now. I think if TV shows can use HDSLRs, then they are good enough to video weddings and such like professionally. I wouldn't dream of doing the videography and the stills photography at the same time tho.

The more I think about it, the more I am coming to the conclusion that I would just shoot a wedding using manual focus. That would solve some of the noise issue. I'd use an external mike, but I also think that I would use a digital recorder to get a consistent sound source. Time syncing would be an issue there.

Ideally, you would drop 10K on a video camera instead, but a 7D can pull it off at a 5th of the price.

I agree with you on the 720p thing too. It's enough.

I have been looking at the merlin stedicam thing as a solution - perhaps even a home-made one. There are quite a few guys who have made their own with varying levels of success. I saw an australian shop selling the brand one for $1250.

Yeah, I do think there is more demand for wedding videography than there is for stills photography (in terms of supply).

I worked with a wedding videographer who had a nice video camera. I worked as his second-shooter using his 5D MkII and the 70-200 f/2.8 IS. Yes, my arms were KILLING ME! Shot steadiness became an issue. He was insistent that the IS made a big difference, but I suspect in introduced another issue where it sort of "jumps" every now and then. If you care about sound interference, some IS mechanisms are noisy too (like the one on the 70-200 IS). Can you please expand on your experience with IS while using them in video? Which lenses have you tried IS with?

[photomarcs]

I think I am even more keen to get a 7D now. I think if TV shows can use HDSLRs, then they are good enough to video weddings and such like professionally. I wouldn't dream of doing the videography and the stills photography at the same time tho.

It's good to hear that you're keen on the 7D, for wedding photographers who have crop sensor based lenses it's a good start =) doing video and stills in the one body is actually quite the treat for weddings, as a wedding photographer myself, when i do slideshows for the clients, i take random snippets of bits and pieces here and there, so bit of video as they come out of the chapel ( which is where i also low burst from the live view in manual focus as well), as well as parts of the location shoot, seems to me that video is in high demand, but not the full scale at the moment, Personally though, I love my 7D. I'll say that as a fanboy and as a user, the quality of the camera suits all my needs and performs beyong my personal expectations most of the time. Something that i tend to do during liveview preview modes prior to video is editing picture styles and WB according to Kelvin, it really does help along the way to do this.

The more I think about it, the more I am coming to the conclusion that I would just shoot a wedding using manual focus. That would solve some of the noise issue. I'd use an external mike, but I also think that I would use a digital recorder to get a consistent sound source. Time syncing would be an issue there.

Shooting Manual Focus (for video) won't be hard in a wedding, what i tend to do personally is to have a large DOF to ensure the quality, although the shallow DOF is the preferred look, I tend to ONLY use the shallow DOF when I'm personally manning the camera, and it's a dedicated moment that would make people go WOW rather than every moment. Using a digital recorder is fine, the time sync is a bit of an issue, but it will only lead to further editing in the end.

I worked with a wedding videographer who had a nice video camera. I worked as his second-shooter using his 5D MkII and the 70-200 f/2.8 IS. Yes, my arms were KILLING ME! Shot steadiness became an issue. He was insistent that the IS made a big difference, but I suspect in introduced another issue where it sort of "jumps" every now and then. If you care about sound interference, some IS mechanisms are noisy too (like the one on the 70-200 IS). Can you please expand on your experience with IS while using them in video? Which lenses have you tried IS with?

I'm yet to come across an IS lens that "jumps" during recording, i guess it's because of the continuity of the IS during video.. it won't stop until you stop recording. I've encountered the Jump many times in the 28-135 to be precise but not in video recording. The lenses i've used for videoing previously include :

18-55mm IS
55-250 IS
24-105 f4L
28-135 IS USM
70-200 f4L IS USM
70-200 f4L USM
70-200 f2.8L IS USM ( vers. I )
18-135 IS
15-85 IS USM
17-40 f4L
16-35 f2.8L
24-70 f2.8L
50mm f1.8
50mm f1.4
50mm f1.2L
85mm f1.2L
135mm f2.8 Nikkor MF
24-70 f2.8 Sigma
10-24 Tamron
Sigma 12-24 EX DG
Canon 15mm f2.8 fisheye
17-50 f2.8 Tamron ( this distorts at 50mm btw.. it's quite WTF)
90mm f2.8 Macro Tamron


yeah.. thats about it as the full list of IS and Non-IS lenses.. I would really like to get my hands on a 200 f2 to test out.. hehehe.. though my personal favourite wil always be the ole faithful 85mm f1.2L hhaha really gets me wanting one bad!

The IS does make a HUGE difference when anything about 60mm.. to me that is.. anything under that it does get questionable to it's value, but anything past 60mm there is quite a substancial difference in the handheld world. Best thing to do is, whack your camera into live view.. is you have an IS lens, whack it to manual focus... hold it to the maximum extend of the zoom with your arm out...watch the quivering from your hand.. then half click the shutter to watch the IS enable, you'll see a big difference in about 4 seconds flat.

I have been looking at the merlin stedicam thing as a solution - perhaps even a home-made one. There are quite a few guys who have made their own with varying levels of success. I saw an australian shop selling the brand one for $1250.

The merlin stedicam thing is worth the money, what I'm personally looking for at the moment is the shoulder kits, and making a video lever. Two things of interest to me atm. =) as well as a 126 LED video light.

I agree with you on the 720p thing too. It's enough.

I can't remember if the previous firmware in the 7D had a 720p @ 30 fps... grr... it's destroying me not being able to remember.. but i'm pretty sure it was there.. new firmware killed it i think.. but end of the day, it comes down to creative control in my opinion... selective frame rates can alter the mood of the video completely.

[spasmoid]

Wowsers, that is an impressive list of lenses.

I have a couple of L series lenses, and I would like to get a 5D simply because of the full-frame sensor, but the newer stuff in the 7D is compelling, I want to shoot sport, and I would sooner be able to afford two 7Ds, allowing me to offer videography as a service (on on tripod, and one hand-held).

Interesting comments re: the IS. I will be sure to keep it on all the time in future.

Also interesting about the shoulder kit. Keep me posted how you go with that. Although that might be a discussion for another forum.

Oh yeah, I love setting up picture styles for certain shoots. It is particularly useful when shooting specifically for B&W. You find that you end up making very different decisions about exposure (when previewing in B&W). Picture styles is a well under-estimated weapon by most photographers. Do picture styles apply to video footage as well?

[aim54x]

I thought IS was disabled in video....even if it is turned on....

[photomarcs]

I thought IS was disabled in video....even if it is turned on....

Nope, visibly effective =)

Wowsers, that is an impressive list of lenses.

I have a couple of L series lenses, and I would like to get a 5D simply because of the full-frame sensor, but the newer stuff in the 7D is compelling, I want to shoot sport, and I would sooner be able to afford two 7Ds, allowing me to offer videography as a service (on on tripod, and one hand-held).

Interesting comments re: the IS. I will be sure to keep it on all the time in future.

Also interesting about the shoulder kit. Keep me posted how you go with that. Although that might be a discussion for another forum.

Oh yeah, I love setting up picture styles for certain shoots. It is particularly useful when shooting specifically for B&W. You find that you end up making very different decisions about exposure (when previewing in B&W). Picture styles is a well under-estimated weapon by most photographers. Do picture styles apply to video footage as well?

Picture styles do apply to video footage, the IS does make a huge difference =) try it sometime!