Gary Stark as you've never seen him before.

[Killakoala]

Shock and horror at today's mini-meet when Gary, our upstanding administrator and devout, fanatical NIKON man strapped on a Canon 1Ds MkII and shocked all present.

People pointed and stared, jaws dropped and drinks were spilled at the sight.

To top it off, this image was taken with a SIGMA lens to capture the moment, albeit on a Nikon D2h.

Mr. Nikon

[Raskill]

TURNCOAT!!!!!!!!!

[big pix]

I must say...... that is a big one you have........

[johndec]

It was truly a scary sight....

I actually had a little play with the Canon flagship. It is an amazing piece of machinery with regards to AF speed and technology, but I was not that impressed with it ergonomics at all. I was never comfortable with it in my hand, they must have some wierd hand models at Canon...

[birddog114]

He jumped ship lately and he confessed!

[LostDingo]

he has been in the closet all this time and now he has finally come out..........

[birddog114]

This forum will be dedicated to Canon soon

[sheepie]

It was truly a scary sight....

hehe - your reaction when you arrived John would have been the highlight of the day. It was quite a shock wasn't it!

Have to agree on the ergonomics. While I'm sure it's a wonderful camera, it (like most other Canon SLR's I've had a hold of) just doesn't feel right in the hands.

[sirhc55]

Next thing will be Gary using some coke

[johndec]

hehe - your reaction when you arrived John would have been the highlight of the day. It was quite a shock wasn't it!

Sure was. The camera he was holding was mildly suprising too.

[moggy]

I want to know what Steve was doing down that low besides taking a picture!

Bob.

.

[Nnnnsic]

We did some tests with it against the D2x and because the lenses were bloody identical, the results will be interesting.

I'm planning to pull them off of the card later on and I'll probably not do any PP to them so people can see what each are like straight off of the camera.

Honestly, there are some bloody impressive features on this but a lot is irritating as well, though I am getting the hang of it quickly even if the ergonomics are way off.

[losfp]

Yep - it never felt quite right in the hand (but how much of that was just being used to the D70...).

But it has a beautiful shutter sound on it

[stubbsy]

And to add to what Leigh said - those tests also provide an interesting example of the difference between full frame sensor (Canon) and DX sensor (Nikon)

[Steffen]

Lies, all lies!!

I was at the mini-meet, and there was no Canon gear anywhere near the place, I'm telling you! This is another one of those PS jobs, and a badly done one, too. Just look at the dodgy attachment of the hand to the arm... Fingers and camera are way out of proportion!

I shall now cover my eyes and ears and go back into the corner, crying...

Cheers
Steffen.

[Big V]

The real question that needs answering is who is the lucky person who owns this wonderful beast? as to the ergonomics, you get used to what you get used to!!!
Full frame v anything else - not really a fair fight - noise and resolution favour the full frame.
Will be interested to hear the results on speed and accuracy of focusing and metering..
Now who owns it?

[birddog114]

The real question that needs answering is who is the lucky person who owns this wonderful beast? as to the ergonomics, you get used to what you get used to!!!
Full frame v anything else - not really a fair fight - noise and resolution favour the full frame.
Will be interested to hear the results on speed and accuracy of focusing and metering..
Now who owns it?

The Starks

[kipper]

So they are turncoats?

That is one camera I'd love to play with, the ergonomics are wierd as somebody has pointed out. However I guess it's something that you'd get accustomed to. It's only because everyone is used to the Nikon feel for so long.

[Nnnnsic]

I'm responsible for it.

I don't own it but rather will be training people to use it and Phase One Capture One so I have it to learn in a week.

It's a surprisingly odd camera with a few good features and a few really bad features, namely the focus points as a big one so far...

[birddog114]

So they are turncoats?

That is one camera I'd love to play with, the ergonomics are wierd as somebody has pointed out. However I guess it's something that you'd get accustomed to. It's only because everyone is used to the Nikon feel for so long.

Kipper,
Don't dream! your 500 AF-S won't work with this beast!

[kipper]

Birddog, you know I'll sell the 500MMF4 as soon as a VR replacement comes out don't you, if I have a well paying job that is

[gstark]

First of all .... guilty as charged.



A couple of points of clarification: in my involvement with photography for awround 35 years thus far, I've owned and used a great many cameras, and I have, in the past, owned Canons too. I think I still have a power winder for an A series SLR, and let me say, right now, that the Canon A1 camera remains, in my mind, as one of the best SLRs ever made by anyone. Truly a benchmark camera.

As was the 300D, but for very different reasons.

But while the A1 will remain revered as a benchmark for technical reasons, I doubt that will be said of the 300D.

On to the EOS 1Ds MkII

The camera is a very capable beastie, wery highly specified, very fast in the focus department, and in the main, very easy to use.

First things: Canon fittings are different from Nikon: the lenses mount in the opposite direction, the focus rings work in the opposite direction too.

This was the first time that I've been able to hndle one of these, and glory be, for an extended period.

My first impressions of the Canon 5D were that it's a nice-ish camera, but the ergonomics were not that good. At the time I wondered wheter that was simply an artefact of my greater familiarity with Nikon products, but after two days' playing with the MkII, I'm safely able to say that there is more than just familiarity coming into play.

For instance, changing the ISO setting is almost a three handed operation: two buttons on the left, plus a wheel on the right. Why does it require so many appendages to do something so basic?

Altering menu selections is even more convoluted: Hold down one button and turn a wheel. To make changes, hold down another button and turn a wheel.

This is neither intuitive, natural, nor comfortable.

More importantly, it is not fast to do: there's a real problem that may manifest itself when it comes to makign changes in the field, in the heat of "battle".

But wait, there's more: image review: display and zoom is fine; there are buttons clearly marked to zoom in and out; this is good, as is the tiny thumbnail that tells you what part of the whole image you're currently looking at.

But let's move to a different part of the image: to move horizontally, you use one of the thumbwheels, and to move vertically, you use the other. One is on the back of the camera; the other is just behind the shutter release.

Whomever came up with this design needs to go back to design school: it's unnatural, it's wrong, it's just plain bloody stupid!

The display on the back is not up to the standards currently being seen in the D2x or even the D200; look at it from anywhere other than dead straight on, and you see very little. I suspect that this is due more to the age of the design and componentry more than anything else, but equally, this is something that should be fairly easy to upgrade.

There are a couple of areas where they have included some very intelligent features: opening the CF housing turns the camera off. This is good.

And in use, the camera is very nice. Being an old film hack, I love the full frame capabilities, and I miss having even a 24mm as a wide angle. The distortion that one sees in the viewfinder with the 16mm is a delight to my eyes, and as much as I love the DX format, I do believbe that if Nikon do not bring out a full frame equivalent, they will lose a significant market: there is more to photography than simply the image quality that they're managing to pull form the DX sensor as exemplified in the D2X, an no amount of spin doctoring can change what are, plain and simple, facts of life.

[sydneywebcam]

Altering menu selections is even more convoluted: Hold down one button and turn a wheel. To make changes, hold down another button and turn a wheel.

This is neither intuitive, natural, nor comfortable.

But let's move to a different part of the image: to move horizontally, you use one of the thumbwheels, and to move vertically, you use the other. One is on the back of the camera; the other is just behind the shutter release.

Whomever came up with this design needs to go back to design school: it's unnatural, it's wrong, it's just plain bloody stupid!

I think it's just a matter of what you are used to using. I use a Canon 1D MK II on a daily basis and I find those controls so fast & easy to use. (Same controls as 1Ds) It prevents making silly mistakes by having to use 2 buttons. I will say when I first got the camera it took a while to get the hang of things, but now when I go back to using a Canon 20D (my backup camera) I get confused by the single button operation.

I would say the same thing about the ergonomics. It feels like a part of my hand now and again going back to different models feels somewhat uncomfortable.

Be it Nikon or Canon either of the high performance models (and of course the basic models) do a great job. I really do think it comes down to what system you are used to and how often you use the particular camera. Having used that camera for a year now I never have to think about what I am doing with the controls, it's so automatic. (not that it took a year to get the hang of it )
___________________
Cheers,
Paul.

[gstark]

Paul,

I think it's just a matter of what you are used to using. I use a Canon 1D MK II on a daily basis and I find those controls so fast & easy to use. (Same controls as 1Ds) It prevents making silly mistakes by having to use 2 buttons. I will say when I first got the camera it took a while to get the hang of things,

And that, probably, is my point: it shouldn't take any time at all to get used to it.

Why should you have to adapt working methods to suit the camera? Should't it be designed to work in your favour, rather than making you work in its favour?

Let's again talk about navigating an enlarged image in the display: Whomever came up with the navigation method employed is an A-grade fool. There is no way that this is good design. Yes, one can get used to it over time, and yes, this won't take too long to become accustomed to.

But that does not change the fact that it's unnatural, and it's just plain stupid, bad design. Try the equivalent functionality on any of the Nikon DSLRs and you'll immediately be confronted by the differences in this design aspect. I suspect you'll understand how much better the Nikon approach to this simple piece of functionality is once you've tried it.



I'm not convinced that the two button approach will prevent silly mistakes: thinking about what you're doing will do that, and whether you press one, two, or ten buttons, if you're not focussed on the task at hand, you're likely to screw up. I know: I screw up regularly and frequently.

I would say the same thing about the ergonomics. It feels like a part of my hand now and again going back to different models feels somewhat uncomfortable.

This is not an issue of discomfort. It's an issue of how things fall within reach of your fingers and how easily things can be done. Can you , for instance, do x or y with the camera at your eye?

And with three buttons needing to be pressed simultaneously, I'm left pondering how photographers in very cold climates might go about tasks like adjusting their ISO while wearing thick gloves.

Further, Leigh tells me that some of the funtionality requires sequential pushing and releasing of buttons, along the lines of press and button button A, press and hold button B, release button A and press button C.

Again, one can become used to this sort of thing, but that doesn't change the fact that it is singularly piss-poor design, and it simply should not be this way in the first plact. FWIW, the Nikon SB800 "enjoys" this sort of piss poor design too.

be it Nikon or Canon either of the high performance models (and of course the basic models) do a great job. I really do think it comes down to what system you are used to and how often you use the particular camera.

That's certainly a large part of it, and if you have an investment in Canon glass, I would not be suggesting for a moment that you moved away from that marque.

Rather, I'm simply stating that there are what I consider to be defects within certain aspects of the basic design that quickly become apparent, and regardless of who makes the camera, those design aspects are, quite simply, inexcusable.

[Killakoala]

along the lines of press and button button A, press and hold button B, release button A and press button C.

Just like my Nikon F70 film camera But the buttons are closer together than on the 1Ds, although they are smaller.

[Nnnnsic]

Actually, the between the evil wheel controls for the menu and the several button requirement to navigate it, I almost accidentally formatted my card several times yesterday as a result wanting to delete one image.

I want to delete an image.

It shouldn't be Trash > select and use wheel to navigate certain direction and release button. It should be trash, confirm with trash or enter. The wheel is bloody evil.

In regards to the ergonomics... I've got ridiculously small hands (any smart-arse quips about this in relations to that of a sexual nature will be deleted straight away) and as a result, objects made for more "normal" hand sizes usually take a bit of getting used to in my hands.

That said, the D2x is slightly larger yet it weighs less and feel better in my hand.

There's an interesting finger indentation at the right-hand grip on the Canon where the Nikon would normally have its red-triangle slope... and it doesn't feel at all right with the Canon. It doesn't merge with my hand and I'd be surprised if it fitted anyone's fore- or middle-finger well, especially since the indentation is smaller than any of my digits.

I personally don't like being told by a product that because I don't have large hands (and those were the cards I was dealt) that I'm not going to be able to have this thing merge with my body the same way other cameras I've used have.

It's odd with the feel of this thing.

I never have had a problem with any medium format cameras in my hands, nor have I ever had a problem with the D2 bodies, but this thing not only weighs more but doesn't gel with my hand.

Further, trying to hold with what I consider the correct way to hold a camera feels bloody uncomfortable.